The Diesel Stop banner

21 - 40 of 53 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
171 Posts
Discussion Starter #21
Thanks Mark!

Here's the EBP Performance data.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
171 Posts
Discussion Starter #22 (Edited)
Help Please - Connectors and Pinouts?

Looks like a camshaft sensor failure to me.

Edit - I forgot you have the later 04.

Yes, it would be good to see the graph of rpm vs EBP (and verify it at KOEO).
Hi Mark,

Did some searching for the connectors and pinouts called out on the diagnostic procedure that you gave me for the Camshaft Position sensor. The pics attached are what I found. It seems the PCM Connector that I'm looking for is the center one and the FICM Connector that I'm looking for is the one nearest the front of the truck. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Thanks!
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
171 Posts
Discussion Starter #23
Progress on CMP Sensor Diagnostic

I got the PCM Connector pulled off (had to search for how to do this without breaking it) and found that you pull the top of the White Bale away from the fender and then pull the connector out of the PCM.

Then I had to rig some probe wires for my big ass multimeter probes so that I could probe the pins in the PCM Connector. I was able to probe through the harness and the Camshaft Position Sensor and got a reading of 927 ohms. (Within expected range).

Then I put everything back together and hooked up the Autoenginuity tool. I found a CMP Sensor Failure signal to have my wife watch on the data graph while I crawled under the truck and wiggled the wire at the CMP Sensor connector body. Nothing happened. So tomorrow I'll pull all the stuff off that I had off this morning so that I can get to the harness and do some enhanced wiggling while I watch that CMP Sensor Fault signal.

After that, I'll continue with the rest of the Camshaft Position Sensor Diagnosis...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
171 Posts
Discussion Starter #24
I've followed the Camshaft Position (CMP) Sensor Diagnostic flow up to removing the CMP Sensor. The following is what I found:

Since I have no DTCs I started at V4 Measure resistance through the CMP sensor (S/B Between 800 & 100 Ohms): 927 Ohms
V5: Wiggled the CMP Sensor cable with no opens detected between the PCM Connector and the CMP Sensor Connector (Even powered a headlight bulb through the circuit): PCM to CMP Sensor cable is sound
V7: Check for shorts to ground betwen PCM to CMP Sensor Connector. : Resistance was unreadable so open & Light bulb circuit burning bright proved no short.
V8: Check for opens in PCM to CMP Sensor Connector circuit: One wire measured .1 ohms and the other measured .2 ohms
V9: Check for Voltage on FICM Pin 10 with Key On: No voltage measured
V10: Measure for short to ground, between FICM Pin 10 and Ground: No Short (> 10K ohms)
V11: Check for Open in wire, Measure Resistance between FICM pin 10 and ECM Pin 20: Resistance < 1 Ohm

The CMP Sensor looks clean and the connector that connects to the CMP Sensor is clean with no oil. The engine block is not rusty....

Pulling the CMP Sensor next to look at it and going to the dealer for a new one.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,977 Posts
Just a thought (I didn't re-read the thread, so forgive me if you have tried this) - have you disconnected the ICP and tried running the truck w/ it disconnected?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
171 Posts
Discussion Starter #26 (Edited)
No Mark I haven't run it without the ICP disconnected. Should I try that before pulling and replacing the Camshaft Positon Sensor? Edit: Well, since I can't get one without ordering it, I guess I'll put it back together and try running with the ICP disconnected......

Thanks!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,977 Posts
Sorry I didn't suggest it earlier. It really doesn't sound like the ICP is the issue, but odder things have happened on the 6.0L.

Monitor the v-reference voltage also.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
171 Posts
Discussion Starter #28
CMP Sensor Getting a Beating?

Pulled the CMP Sensor because I needed to be sure it wasn't a problem after spending so much time on the wiring.

The outermost O-Ring has a big nick in it but there didn't seem to be any oil getting out...
The most interesting part is the end of the sensor had the kind of metal shavings you find on a normally operating engine (very tiny) and it looks like the Camshaft Pin (or whatever it is) has been hitting it or at least grinding it down. It looks like it may have started grinding into something under the tip (notice black lines). See the pics attached.

Does the Camshaft Pin (or whatever it is) stay where it is or can it come out?
Do I have to pull the cam? :frown2:

What are your recommendations for next steps?

Thanks!!
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,977 Posts
Can you tell if the sensor is an actual motorcraft sensor?

Maybe (and it is a LONG shot) the sensor was torqued down too tight on installation? Maybe installed at an angle?

Hopefully there isn't an issue with the cam shaft. I would think if there were, you would have other issues. I have no idea on the pin itself (ie what it would take for it to "move").

Torque spec for the sensor is 8 ft-lbs.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
171 Posts
Discussion Starter #30 (Edited)
CMP Sensor Pics

Hey Mark,

I assume the part is a FORD Part, as I bought the truck new and to my knowledge nobody has changed it out. There are some numbers on it and I shot some pics of it, but it appears that I have no more space to upload pics on the forum. One of the numbers is 3J24 and the other one is 1835985C92.

I ordered a Motorcraft part from Rockauto that should be here hopefully sooner than they say, and I'll compare the length then. If the new part is longer than the old part, I'll probably put some kind of shim in there to make sure the camshaft doesn't contact it. I'm thinking gasket material or sheet metal, but not sure at this point.

I did a search on CKP/CMP Sync and found lots and lots of discussion about folks that had issues with the CMP sensor and even one that talked about a shim kit. I bet that can't be bought, but wonder if anyone on the Forum knows about where you might get such a thing.

Have a Great Day! I'm just waiting on parts.....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,977 Posts
1835985C92 is a Navistar part number, so it should be good.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
171 Posts
Discussion Starter #32 (Edited)
CMP Sensor - No Change

:frown2: Put a new Motorcraft Cam Position Sensor in yesterday.
This morning I drove the truck and there was no change in performance. Still Bucking when lugging the motor.
Pulled codes with KOEO and same as before (EGR stuff on the EGR Deleted engine).
Checked the CMP/CKP Sync while at idle and same out of sync condition on the graph.

Pulled the ICP connector and drove the truck. No Change in performance, but got the ICP Circuit low code afterwards.

Just out of curiosity, and after searching the forum for other similar issues, I selected the EBP on my Scangage and watched it while driving. While under hard acceleration it jumps to 41 psi. Also can't tell for sure, but looks like puffs of black smoke (but I can't be sure with 30mph winds). Going to get my wife to drive behind me and watch the truck while it's bucking and I'll monitor EBP with AE. Edit- She drove behind me and no black smoke that was discernable.

BUT: After I got back, I was poking around on the AE menus and found the KOEO injector buzz test. Well I had seen the one DieseltechRon had ran and I didn't think I had that one! But I do, so I ran it and found Injector #7 not responding! So I assume that's my problem so I'm thinking about ordering 5 new injectors to replace the ones I hadn't replaced when I put heads on.... What are your thoughts on this?

And I'm still wondering about the CMP/CPM Sync. Is that a Red Herring or what?

Thanks!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,977 Posts
Unplugging the EBP sensor is always a good (free) thing to try on intermittent driveability issues.

I do think that you are on to something w/ injectors #7.

That said. I have not ever seen the intermittent sync.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
171 Posts
Discussion Starter #35
Unhook the connector from the back pressure sensor and roadtest. I seen them shorted and cause driveability issue.
Thanks for your ideas HonaRacer.

I tried it and it didn't help.....

Time to start pulling injectors
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
171 Posts
Discussion Starter #36
Finally feeling like this is the right direction!!!

Unplugging the EBP sensor is always a good (free) thing to try on intermittent driveability issues.

I do think that you are on to something w/ injectors #7.

That said. I have not ever seen the intermittent sync.
Thanks Mark,

I'm sorry I didn't see the Injector Buzz test before. My "Blind Dog Looking for a Bone" routine with Autoenginuity is just sad. Seems like I just wander around in that tool with no purpose pushing buttons and running tests. My frustration with it back early on in this thread was expressed when I didn't think there was any way for it to diagnose injector issues. It appears it still doesn't do anything except run the spool valves and check for power balance (at idle). Oh well, it's better than nothing and if it weren't for you guys that know the motor inside and out, I'd really be lost figuring out what to look at.

Pulling #7 injector today and hopefully I can determine which ones were the new ones I put in last time (seems like there were some slight wire or connector body differences). It turns out I only replaced 3 of them when I put heads on so I ordered 5 injectors from Autonation White Bear Lake this morning. Might as well get it done once and wish I had replaced them all earlier.

Sure hope #7 isn't one of the new ones I put in!

BTW, there are some threads on CMP/CKP sync loss and one where you said there is an obscure failure where a shorted coil on an injector can cause it. There are others where the tone ring on the crank have broken loose, but that obviously shows up as a CKP sensor, and others where the harness going through the area where the fuel lines are is "suspect".

Oh well, better get to work wrenching!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
159 Posts
Before replacing #7 , do the buzz test with plugged new #7 (uninstalled).
Heres my video. In this case, #5 was the problem

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
171 Posts
Discussion Starter #38 (Edited)
Thanks Hartwig!! Edit - Too late for that because I've already taken everything off and disconnected the harnesses getting ready to pull the rocker covers tomorrow and pull the oil rail to get the 5 new injectors installed. I won't get the new injectors until tomorrow (NLT 8:00pm). Great Idea though if I had a new injector to test the circuit with while the truck was together. Turns out that the 3 new injectors I put in when I did the heads awhile back have blue seals on the connectors and all of my old injectors have orange seals. That bad #7 is an orange seal (old) injector. Well with 225K on them, I hear that's probably pretty good.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
802 Posts
Make sure when installing the Injectors to use an air gun to blow out all the oil from the injector hold down bolt holes. If not, you will not be able to get a proper torque on them due to the oil in the bottom of the holes. Trust me, I know this from first hand experience, unfortunately.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14 Posts
I have seen the injector harness go bad. A broken wire near the injector plug. Wiggling the harness revealed the problem.
 
21 - 40 of 53 Posts
Top