[Troutly]

Re: on ignore

[ QUOTE ]
I for one really appreciate Vic Ferrari's willingness to take the time to answer our questions and give us info. He is obviously very knowledgable about tuning and specifically our 6.0L's. I don't see what attacking his knowledge about the torqueshift is accomplishing besides making him regret visiting this forum.. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ] <font color="blue"> Agreed. Very good info. Much appreciated. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif </font>

 

[Iluvsteelies]

Re: on ignore

Ok, so it skips fifth or whatever. I wasn't sure on the specifics like I said. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

VIC, why are you methods of testing propietary? To me those are bragging rights, you can tell all the rest of us the battery of tests that you put your calibrations through (if thats the case).


I didn't ask anything that you couldn't answer without giving away any of your products secrets.


Hypermax and Banks program utilizing engine dynos. What method do you use?

Their programmers are in the same price range as yours. Why should I buy your products tha uses chassis dyno calibration instead of the engine dyno method which is clearly superior and the way the oems do it? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif


What is internationals limit on peak firing pressures for the 6.0? That is not anything thats propietary to your company, you can answer that without giving away any R&D type info. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smokin.gif

Im not concerned about how strong the tranny is. It's the clutches im worried about. If I take the WDS and look at shaft speed sensors am I going to see excessive slippage under WOT with your module? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

What do you mean by boost spikes? Just momentary during say downshifts or all the time. Whats the peak max boost your module is supposed to make?

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

[FamilyRide]

Re: on ignore

[ QUOTE ]
Hypermax and Banks program utilizing engine dynos. What method do you use?

Their programmers are in the same price range as yours.

[/ QUOTE ]

To confirm, Banks is not a programmer, it's a module and it's about 2 to 3 times the cost. As for Hypermax, I understand they aren't going to get in the 6.0 game. So far it's only Diablo and SC for programmers, but quite a few modules.

 

[Vic_Ferrari]

Re: on ignore

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, so it skips fifth or whatever. I wasn't sure on the specifics like I said. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

VIC, why are you methods of testing propietary? To me those are bragging rights, you can tell all the rest of us the battery of tests that you put your calibrations through (if thats the case).


I didn't ask anything that you couldn't answer without giving away any of your products secrets.


Hypermax and Banks program utilizing engine dynos. What method do you use?

Their programmers are in the same price range as yours. Why should I buy your products tha uses chassis dyno calibration instead of the engine dyno method which is clearly superior and the way the oems do it? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif


What is internationals limit on peak firing pressures for the 6.0? That is not anything thats propietary to your company, you can answer that without giving away any R&D type info. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smokin.gif

Im not concerned about how strong the tranny is. It's the clutches im worried about. If I take the WDS and look at shaft speed sensors am I going to see excessive slippage under WOT with your module? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

What do you mean by boost spikes? Just momentary during say downshifts or all the time. Whats the peak max boost your module is supposed to make?

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

It skips 4th going up and 5th going down.

I came into this forum in my own time to answer some questions and make a few things clear that were not clear.
Believe it or not, EVERYTHING I do is held proprietary by my employer.
Test results, everything must be released by the correct department.

I'd love to tell everything...but I simply can't.
The development process is very involved.
If you actually went to the dyno facility (and I assume other companies and OEM's facilities), you wouldn't get within spitting distance of the dyno facility without an appointment (and a good reason to be there)....it's just procedures and rules that have to be followed.
I share what I can and I will not share what I can't. It's that simple.

You should buy whatever product you are most comfortable with.

I'f you are really worried about clutch slippage, throw it on the scan tool. You'll be pleasantly surprised.

Peak boost (I will say again), varies by calibration, vehicle weight, gear ratio, etc...etc...
The greater the load, the greater the boost pressure. I've never seen higher than 34, and this was in short bursts at VERY high load and high RPM. Drive a truck with the PERF file on the street, or even with a 6,000 LB trailer (max trailer weight for the 150HP performance file).
Most calibrations will see 30 PSI, with spikes of 32...some with greater load will spike at 34.

You DO know that these 6.0's can vary by a few PSI stock vs stock, don't you?

 

[koolkat812]

Re: on ignore

Vic, a buddy of mine and me decided to try the programmer on his truck (not mine, still breaking in the new replacement motor). He previously had the predator and with the predator you can feel it stick you to the seat much quicker and heavier than the SC does. It also picks up in speed quicker to. We are going to dyno the truck 2morrow and a local dyno shop but from riding in his truck it doesn't feel like 150hp. In fact it doesn't feel as peppy as the predator does. Also does the tune need time to adjust in the truck like the predator or is it plug and go?? Any ideas????

Next he is going to try to stack it with a module and see what happens. Not a high HP module but one to maybe help with the timing or something like that.. dunno..

Thanks

 

[softwiz]

Re: on ignore

Vic,

Isn't it unusual to start selling a product without having the dyno charts available? I'm not picking on you, but I believe these should be available by now.

Thanks

 

[Vic_Ferrari]

Re: on ignore

[ QUOTE ]
Vic, a buddy of mine and me decided to try the programmer on his truck (not mine, still breaking in the new replacement motor). He previously had the predator and with the predator you can feel it stick you to the seat much quicker and heavier than the SC does. It also picks up in speed quicker to. We are going to dyno the truck 2morrow and a local dyno shop but from riding in his truck it doesn't feel like 150hp. In fact it doesn't feel as peppy as the predator does. Also does the tune need time to adjust in the truck like the predator or is it plug and go?? Any ideas????

Next he is going to try to stack it with a module and see what happens. Not a high HP module but one to maybe help with the timing or something like that.. dunno..

Thanks

[/ QUOTE ]

TSome say predator feels snappier off the line, but the 1704 feels stronger up high.
The 1704 makes 150HP...believe you me. It's misleading because the power comes on smoothly and the powerband continues all the way to the 3850-3900 shift point.

Throw it on the dyno and post results.

If you hav your stock calibration information (hex codes), post that too.

 

[koolkat812]

Re: on ignore

We are trying to get it on the rollers 2day and will post the results this evening..

He did seems a little disappointed off the line but i'll relay the info.

Again you can't go by the SOP meter, the dyno will tell the true tale..

Thanks

 

[StuartV]

Re: on ignore

[ QUOTE ]
The 1704 makes 150HP...believe you me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've seen your previous explanations of this and, though I believe myself to be fairly technical and reasonably knowledgeable, for a lay person, regarding dynos, I have to admit that I didn't understand what you said. So, let me explain what I think this means and please tell me if I've gotten it right.

"The 1704 makes 150 HP" means that if, for example, my truck dynos a maximum of 290 HP stock, and I load the 150 HP program from the 1704 into my truck, it should now dyno with a maximum of 440 HP. And, that HP peak may be at a different RPM that the original HP peak.

Is that correct?

If that is not correct, then please tell us how much the HP peak # should increase using a 1704 with the highest HP program loaded. It would be THAT number that would serve as an apples-to-apples comparison with the other manufacturers' number.

If I am not mistaken, it is that difference between peak #s that is what everybody else (Quadzilla, Edge, Predator anyway) is publishing for their modules. I *know* that that is how Quad measures it. I've seen postings from people that dynoed their truck stock and with a Quad 125 module, and their peak HP # increased by 125 HP (or more).

I don't really care to debate how useful that # is. My point is simply that if everybody else is measuring their gains that way and publishing that number, then Superchips ought to at least make that number available as well, even if its not the # they choose to use to label their product with.

 

[FamilyRide]

Re: on ignore

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The 1704 makes 150HP...believe you me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've seen your previous explanations of this and, though I believe myself to be fairly technical and reasonably knowledgeable, for a lay person, regarding dynos, I have to admit that I didn't understand what you said. So, let me explain what I think this means and please tell me if I've gotten it right.

"The 1704 makes 150 HP" means that if, for example, my truck dynos a maximum of 290 HP stock, and I load the 150 HP program from the 1704 into my truck, it should now dyno with a maximum of 440 HP. And, that HP peak may be at a different RPM that the original HP peak.

Is that correct?

If that is not correct, then please tell us how much the HP peak # should increase using a 1704 with the highest HP program loaded. It would be THAT number that would serve as an apples-to-apples comparison with the other manufacturers' number.

If I am not mistaken, it is that difference between peak #s that is what everybody else (Quadzilla, Edge, Predator anyway) is publishing for their modules. I *know* that that is how Quad measures it. I've seen postings from people that dynoed their truck stock and with a Quad 125 module, and their peak HP # increased by 125 HP (or more).

I don't really care to debate how useful that # is. My point is simply that if everybody else is measuring their gains that way and publishing that number, then Superchips ought to at least make that number available as well, even if its not the # they choose to use to label their product with.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah Grasshopper, you have stumbled onto the Hornets nest of understanding, or misunderstanding that has everyone in a frenzy /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

There are those that believe that a "150 HP" tune will add 150 HP to the rated HP of the engine hense 325HP + 150HP = 475HP. Or as you described, HP at peak, however, also consider that "peak" is a dymanic thing.

As I understand from the grapevine, SC has seen about 80 HP gain at peak, meaning where stock HP peaks, they are getting 80HP more. So using numbers out of the air for example only, if a stock truck peaks a 275HP at 2800 RPM, with SC they are getting 355HP at 2800RPM. I further understand that "unofficially" they've actually seen 200HP over stock much further up in the 3500RPM and up range where stock is laying down big time. So where stock may be making say 100HP at 4000RPM, SC is making 300HP at 4000RPM which is 200HP gain over stock. If you use the published number of 150HP which I understand is conservative, that would be stock at 100HP at 4000RPM and with SC, 250HP at 4000RPM.

Again, those are numbers out of the air, but should demonstrate where I think some of the numbers are really throwing people off. Depending on how you inturpret them, the power gains would be perceived as outragous! It's good power, but the numbers are "marketing" tools and can confuse.

I'm sure all programmer and module makers use the same, or similar methodology. If not, it explains the differences and confusion.

If what was posted is correct and Quad uses "peak" numbers then it would look like, stock 275HP at 2800RPM and Quad makes 400HP at 2800RPM which IS more power than SC. But what does the entire power band look like? Does the Quad or Edge or Diablo etc. drop off like stock leaving SC making more power in the upper RPM's? Who knows.

Ok, I'm confusing myself now. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif I think many of these arguments are apples to oranges. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smokin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/zombie.gif <see, an apple and an orange>

 

[Vic_Ferrari]

Re: on ignore

[ QUOTE ]
Vic,

Isn't it unusual to start selling a product without having the dyno charts available? I'm not picking on you, but I believe these should be available by now.

Thanks

[/ QUOTE ]

Remember that I am the tuner.
I am not customer service; I am also not advertising.

WHen advertising releases the dyno plots, I will release them.

 

[Vic_Ferrari]

Re: on ignore

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The 1704 makes 150HP...believe you me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've seen your previous explanations of this and, though I believe myself to be fairly technical and reasonably knowledgeable, for a lay person, regarding dynos, I have to admit that I didn't understand what you said. So, let me explain what I think this means and please tell me if I've gotten it right.

"The 1704 makes 150 HP" means that if, for example, my truck dynos a maximum of 290 HP stock, and I load the 150 HP program from the 1704 into my truck, it should now dyno with a maximum of 440 HP. And, that HP peak may be at a different RPM that the original HP peak.

Is that correct?

If that is not correct, then please tell us how much the HP peak # should increase using a 1704 with the highest HP program loaded. It would be THAT number that would serve as an apples-to-apples comparison with the other manufacturers' number.

If I am not mistaken, it is that difference between peak #s that is what everybody else (Quadzilla, Edge, Predator anyway) is publishing for their modules. I *know* that that is how Quad measures it. I've seen postings from people that dynoed their truck stock and with a Quad 125 module, and their peak HP # increased by 125 HP (or more).

I don't really care to debate how useful that # is. My point is simply that if everybody else is measuring their gains that way and publishing that number, then Superchips ought to at least make that number available as well, even if its not the # they choose to use to label their product with.

[/ QUOTE ]

WHen the dyno sheets come out and I have something I'm allowed to show, I will explain it in depth.
You'll be able to see what the gain is in HP and Torque at each RPM once the charts are released. You will see the peak and of peak gains. The peak gains are advertised. The off-peak gains are just plain absurd =o)

This is not to say that there is no variance in power numbers.

I had one truck make 170 HP!

As with any mass produced product, car and trucks vary stock vs stock and how they make their gains.
It's alredy been shown the 03 strategies amke more power stock ( a good bit more) than the 04 strategies do.
Also, to clear one more thing up:
03 Strategy can be found on 2003 and 2004 trucks.
04 strategy is found in 04 trucks only...

I'm not going into abig explanation about the difference in strategies.
All that needs to be known here is that the 03 strategies are stronger.

 

[Vic_Ferrari]

Re: on ignore

Well.....
now it's my turn for a "thank you".

I appreciate everyone in here with their questions and intelligent posts. It's really nice to get some feedback at the user level.

Of course, there are always going to be those who try and discredit you (or me an my posts =o)...especially if you "know" something.
I'm really not worried about it because I still feel this is productive.

thanks again,

"Vic"

 

[FMTRVT]

Re: on ignore

[ QUOTE ]
..... It's already been shown the 03 strategies make more power stock (a good bit more) than the 04 strategies do.

Also, to clear one more thing up:

03 Strategy can be found on 2003 and 2004 trucks.
04 strategy is found in 04 trucks only...

I'm not going into a big explanation about the difference in strategies. All that needs to be known here is that the 03 strategies are stronger.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is that with an original 03 program or lets say an 03 that has been reflashed in Jan 04?

Does it appear that the latest reflashes that this advantage away?

 

[M_Carter]

Re: on ignore

[ QUOTE ]
It's alredy been shown the 03 strategies amke more power stock ( a good bit more) than the 04 strategies do.
Also, to clear one more thing up:
03 Strategy can be found on 2003 and 2004 trucks.
04 strategy is found in 04 trucks only...

I'm not going into abig explanation about the difference in strategies.
All that needs to be known here is that the 03 strategies are stronger.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, come on now Vic, you know we can't let this rest now... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

By 'strategy' do you mean the same thing as program versions or flashes? And if so, then by 04 trucks with 03 strategy, are you referring to the builds before the January 2004 B29.6 release?
Enquiring minds have to know. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif

And thanks a lot for all your patience with the group and great info.

Mike

 

[Vic_Ferrari]

Re: on ignore

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's alredy been shown the 03 strategies amke more power stock ( a good bit more) than the 04 strategies do.
Also, to clear one more thing up:
03 Strategy can be found on 2003 and 2004 trucks.
04 strategy is found in 04 trucks only...

I'm not going into a big explanation about the difference in strategies.
All that needs to be known here is that the 03 strategies are stronger.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, come on now Vic, you know we can't let this rest now... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

By 'strategy' do you mean the same thing as program versions or flashes? And if so, then by 04 trucks with 03 strategy, are you referring to the builds before the January 2004 B29.6 release?
Enquiring minds have to know. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif

And thanks a lot for all your patience with the group and great info.

Mike

[/ QUOTE ]



There is a 2003 strategy and a 2004 strategy...having very little to do with the "model year" of the truck.

All that needs to be known is that the 03 strategy is used in 03 AND 04 trucks. The 04 strategy is only used in 04 trucks.
There are some different parameters in the two strategies.

I don't know the date for the changeover of strategies, but it was well into the 2004 model year.
The maps, etc... are arranged a bit different and changes respond a little different...so an 04 strategy truck runs and drives different than an 03 strategy truck.
Which is beter?
Your preference......
I can't go in depth om this.

If Ford will tell you how to tell the difference between strategies (if the dealer even knows), that is fine. Please don't ask me how to tell because at this time it's "proprietary information"
Feel free to ask Ford and post it if they tell you.

If you give me your hex codes (engine and/or tranny), I can tell you if it's an 03 or 04 strategy.

If you truck is an 03 strategy, Ford may update it, but (from what I've seen so far) only to a newer 03 strategy (yes, even if it is a 2004 truck that came with an 03 strategy).

I haven't seen ford change an 03 strategy truck to an 04 strategy, but this dosn't mean it can't happen. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shrug.gif
If it did happen, the tuner would know about it when it plugs in and tune according to the new strategy.

No doubt, the 03 strategies are making more power before and after tuning, though the gains are almost identical for each strategy (within a few HP, +/- the difference in stock calibrations and differences from one truck to another)

Heck, ever seen 03 Cobras on the dyno?

Mine makes 472RWHP/494 FTLBS at the tire
Another identical car makes 440 RWHP and yet another makes 500.

Not all dynos are the same, SAE and STP correction varies (if SAE/STP is used), temperature differences, quality of fuel, etc...etc...

 

[Iluvsteelies]

Re: on ignore

This is why the only truly accurate way to do programming is utilizing an engine dyno.

All these rear wheel horsepower #s are useless. Their are so many variations in the drivetrain that I don't understand how you can tune that way.

Family ride, Hypermax has had products out for the 6.0 for more than a year now. Hypermaxdiesel.com They started working on the programming in late 2002. They have nozzles available for injectors right now but no actual "bigger" injectors.

It is a plug-in module, It costs 600 bucks and has 3 different settings.

I haven't personally seen boost variations on stuck trucks with the same calibration. The stock calibration controls the vanes in a feedback loop just like the 7.3 so a larger exhaust does not change boost. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

With my 7.3 I watched the duty cycle change when I installed a larger exhaust. You could watch it go down so the wastegate would open more to control peak boost to the max of 18.

My TTS chip claimed to control boost but all it did was go to full leak after a certain CLV. When I put a bigger exhaust on it would make way to much boost for the puny amount of power of it was making. It didn't control boost in a feedback loop like the stock calibration did. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

On another note: Whats the world coming to when Diesels now have throttle plates? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/phoney.gif

 

[StuartV]

Re: on ignore

[ QUOTE ]
WHen the dyno sheets come out and I have something I'm allowed to show, I will explain it in depth.
You'll be able to see what the gain is in HP and Torque at each RPM once the charts are released. You will see the peak and of peak gains. The peak gains are advertised. The off-peak gains are just plain absurd =o)

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought I asked a simple question, that should have a simple answer. But either I didn't get an answer, or it wasn't simple enough for me to understand.

So, let me try one more time.

Vic_Ferrari,

What is the difference in peak HP numbers between a 6.0 PSD that is stock and the same 6.0 PSD with the SC 1704 "150HP" tune loaded?

(hint: the answer should simply be a number, not some vague marketspeak like, for example, "the peak gains are advertised")

(hint2: I just saw another thread in this forum that gives hard data. It says that the answer to my question is 95. Is that really right? The SC "150 HP" tune really only increases peak HP by 95?)

 

[Vic_Ferrari]

Re: on ignore

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
WHen the dyno sheets come out and I have something I'm allowed to show, I will explain it in depth.
You'll be able to see what the gain is in HP and Torque at each RPM once the charts are released. You will see the peak and of peak gains. The peak gains are advertised. The off-peak gains are just plain absurd =o)

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought I asked a simple question, that should have a simple answer. But either I didn't get an answer, or it wasn't simple enough for me to understand.

So, let me try one more time.

Vic_Ferrari,

What is the difference in peak HP numbers between a 6.0 PSD that is stock and the same 6.0 PSD with the SC 1704 "150HP" tune loaded?

(hint: the answer should simply be a number, not some vague marketspeak like, for example, "the peak gains are advertised")

(hint2: I just saw another thread in this forum that gives hard data. It says that the answer to my question is 95. Is that really right? The SC "150 HP" tune really only increases peak HP by 95?)

[/ QUOTE ]

Your question is fair enough, and I will give as short of an answer as possible. (which isn't going to be short)
If you would, please try to be a little more patient/polite.
There is no reason to be impatient, crass or impolite.

Moving on...

I dyno tested the 1704 and it makes 150 HP at peak at the tire.
(theres your cut and dry answer, now it must be explained)

To elaborate on this, pulls were done with the transmission LOCKED in 5th gear through all stock and modified pulls.
Why does this matter?

I did a lot of load testing in all gears, but power runs were with inertia pulls.
While making inertia power runs with a diesel (or anything turbocharged), load will drastically affect peak boost (and WHEN it attains peak boost, this is also of vital importance) and power output.

As with any chassis dyno test, the most accurate "at the tire" measurement is whichever gear delivers a 1:1 ratio to avoid power/torque loss or multplication.
In our case it is 5th gear ("6" is overdrive)

To make the test consistent, I LOCKED the truck in 5th gear for all runs to measure power before and after tuning. I then locked the torque converter constantly to keep the converter slip from affecting power numbers. This creates load similar to what you would see accelerating hard on the street. Remember, this was done stock and modified.

The truck will "make less power" using 1st, 2nd or 3rd (keep in mind, this is less power on a dyno in inertia mode because the roller can't duplicate enough load in inertia phase to make peak power with the trucks gearing as effective as it is in lower gears.)
Gains will also be lesser in the lower gears on an inertia dyno with a turbocharged vehicle.
Make sense?
In other words...the rollers spin too freely in inertia phase and the trucks effective gearing in the lower gears is strong enough to alleviate enough load that it causes less power to show a the tire (since load is required to reach peak boost quickly, and for a number of other reasons).

What? =o)
Read it closely. It makes sense.

In retrospect...the truck would make more power in 6th gear on an inertia dyno than it would in 5th, but we don't use this because 6th is not a 1:1 ratio.

So to answer your question:
Yes, the 1704 makes 150 hp at peak (and it makes more than that off peak)...in a 5th gear pull (with upshifting and downshifting 'locked out' in the program), compared to stock runs made the same way.

Notice a tuned stroke makes more power as load inreases?
I've had many people tell me by the upper gears it's pulling HARD.

1:1 lockup is the only way to get power measurements at the tire as correct as possible with inertia power measurement.
A chassis dyno is only an effective tool if you know how to use it properly.

These are by far not the only vaiables that are controlled during the test. Engine oil temp must be nearly identical before I will compare runs...I also watch IAT, etc...

Then you have wheel slip....an entirely different subject. Sometimes stock trucks don't slip but modified trucks do. 10% (or whatever percent)slippage will cause a drop in power. If you cant measure slip, you can't measure power loss due to slip, and thus can not apply a correction with any accuracy.

Tuning is very technical, and it's very difficult to be exact when making dyno runs, particularly when you can't control all of the variables.
Even with an engine dyno, there are variables.

Even if all measures are taken, there are still variables.
Some look for cut and dry answers, but there is little (if anything) with this subject that can be cut and dry.

On another subject...
Stock vs stock or stock vs modded, the occasional truck will be a freak of nature and make more or less power.
That's just how the automotive business goes.
Humans (and human built machines) assemble vehicles, and no two are exactly the same.
Some calibrations are different, too...

These are not 'exuses', these are variables.
I'm not saying the Predator didn't make more power in this situation...
It very well may have.
This is one truck, and the procedures used to test have not yet been given. I also find it odd that in this test they didn't measure torque numbers.
Isn't that what these diesels are all about?
Torque gets it going, HP keeps it going.

When we have some charts to really look at, I'll break it all down in short,lay terms (hah!) and you'll be able to see the gains at each RPM.

I fear the flood of questions that may follow this post =o), but it will at least give somthing to contemplate and research (if this sort of thing interests you).

 

[QuadBoenker]

Re: on ignore

[ QUOTE ]


Ah Grasshopper, you have stumbled onto the Hornets nest of understanding, or misunderstanding that has everyone in a frenzy /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

There are those that believe that a "150 HP" tune will add 150 HP to the rated HP of the engine hense 325HP + 150HP = 475HP. Or as you described, HP at peak, however, also consider that "peak" is a dymanic thing.

As I understand from the grapevine, SC has seen about 80 HP gain at peak, meaning where stock HP peaks, they are getting 80HP more. So using numbers out of the air for example only, if a stock truck peaks a 275HP at 2800 RPM, with SC they are getting 355HP at 2800RPM. I further understand that "unofficially" they've actually seen 200HP over stock much further up in the 3500RPM and up range where stock is laying down big time. So where stock may be making say 100HP at 4000RPM, SC is making 300HP at 4000RPM which is 200HP gain over stock. If you use the published number of 150HP which I understand is conservative, that would be stock at 100HP at 4000RPM and with SC, 250HP at 4000RPM.

Again, those are numbers out of the air, but should demonstrate where I think some of the numbers are really throwing people off. Depending on how you inturpret them, the power gains would be perceived as outragous! It's good power, but the numbers are "marketing" tools and can confuse.

I'm sure all programmer and module makers use the same, or similar methodology. If not, it explains the differences and confusion.

If what was posted is correct and Quad uses "peak" numbers then it would look like, stock 275HP at 2800RPM and Quad makes 400HP at 2800RPM which IS more power than SC. But what does the entire power band look like? Does the Quad or Edge or Diablo etc. drop off like stock leaving SC making more power in the upper RPM's? Who knows.

Ok, I'm confusing myself now. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif I think many of these arguments are apples to oranges. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smokin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/zombie.gif <see, an apple and an orange>

[/ QUOTE ]


First let me start to by saying that I am not a hostile person as you have described me in another thread. I am simply amazed at the mis-information that is given in some of these threads. If you were to show up at a dyno event I would be more than happy to show, and explain a lot of things to you. I am an extremely friendly person and I think you have taken my offers in the wrong tone.

Now, Peak to Peak power differences have nothing to do with rpm being the same. Peak to Peak horsepower means at whatever rpm stock makes the best power vs. whatever rpm modified makes the most power. In other words stock 275hp @ 2800rpms vs 375hp at 3500 rpms.

Here is a good example to look at http://www.quadzillapower.com/graph.JPG\
This chart is in 1:1 ration ie. 4th gear (5th gear for Vic)

If you will notice we ended the stock test @ 3300 rpms. The power starts falling like a rock from that point on when you have a bone stock truck.

Peak power stock occured at around 3275rpms. Peak torque occured at about 2800rpms. Torque is really hard to measure properly on a dynojet and is better suited for a load cell dyno when you can load the vehicle.

Modified in level 1 peak horsepower occured at about 3475 rpms. Torque peaked at around 2700rpms. Notice the power peaked at different rpms.

So if what you are saying is true then I should compare Level 2 hp at 3500 vs 3500 stock and I would have been in the mid 250hp gain area? If I would have let the truck continue on the power would have dropped to stupidly low numbers. Why should you compare the poor numbers stock to the best numbers modified? You could play games forever on best gain scenarios.

If I claimed 200hp gain, and I could prove it on the dyno sheet, but your truck only made 375rwhp would you feel cheated?

I think that this should clear a few things up.

I really don't care how much it makes or how much it doesn't, but the things being done are simply not right.

Only a few companies throw dyno numbers around like you mentioned. They do this because they simply do not match up. It would not be confusing if they were not being decietful.


My .02

P.S. I would still love to buy you a beer and a dyno run if you want?