[todrac]

I recently purchase a 2004 F-350 with a 6.0 liter engine that has several problems of which this is one of them. After reading several posts regarding Oil and EGR coolers I decided to do a few checks to see what the system was doing. I am having a radiator cooling fan that is running most of the time in 104 degree wx. The vehicle was in light duty, no load and on level ground in Oklahoma on these runs. I have an AE scanning tool so I decided to run a data log when the fan was running to see what temps it was running at. I have included the data log file so you could see the results. The ECT seems in spec but the EOT is way out. There is no evidence of oil in the coolant and only a light dusting of sediment on the bottom of the degas bottle. I have not seen any evidence of degas at this time but the previous owner may have since there is evidence of it on the hoses below the degas bottle. Is there a way to check if the system has been flushed and a non silicate cooling fluid used? I do have pids set for EGR cooler.

P0401 Exhaust Gas Recirculation Flow Insufficient Detected
P0405 Exhaust Gas Recirculation Sensor A Circuit Low

Question, in your opinion do I have a oil cooler and egr cooler that about to cost me big bucks or has it reached that stage already? Would a flush be advisable with these numbers and would that possibly unclog the system. Would it be advisable to run the vehicle with the EGR cooler disabled and if so what would be the down side of doing it?

The Data Log File:

 

[dieselmac]

Your oil cooler is toast. No doubt about it. And a flush is not going to cure it. You're going to need a new oil cooler and EGR cooler / delete at a minimum.

 

[nylyon]

Your maximum difference is 63 degrees with the average being 50.3. Your oil cooler is pretty clogged up. Do you need a flush, yes, will reverse flushing the oil cooler fix it, probably not.

 

[todrac]

We’ll if two say it, it must be true. I cannot believe Ford screwed this motor up that badly. I suppose it’s my fault for buying this vehicle and not doing research on this engine. I was trying to upgrade my 95 F-350 7.3 that I’ve towed my 5er for well over 70,000 miles with a later model. Now that I am here I have to decide if I should keep it or let it go. The vehicle has 175,000 miles on it, and not having any maint records on it, I’m wondering how long this condition has existed. I know you cannot decide for me but your professional input would be more then welcome here. I still own the the 95 but it needs a tranny which I suspect would be cheaper then the repair that is needed on the 04. Other issues are a bad FICM and I’ve already tried the repair on this forum but it may have to be replaced. I cannot do the repairs myself so would have to go to shop in this area (Enid OK or Oklahoma City) for repairs. Does anyone know of a reputable repair shop in this area. Would you stop operating it even in light duty?

 

[HeavyAssault]

WOW...That's some bad numbers. I hate to say it but thanks for posting the datalog. People need to realize what a BAD split really looks like.

 

[todrac]

Well the question still stands, FIX or No FIX (and just call it a lesson learned).

 

[fireguywtc]

Fix and do some home work. You can make the 6.0 a good, reliable motor with the proper modifications and/or maintainance. You can delete stuff and make it reliable, but you can also do some other routine maintainance, like coolant flushes to keep everything working like it should.

Browsing through the 6.0 sections should yeild you a ton of information on what you want to do and what you don't want to do.

 

[ryqster]

Fix it...before the oil cooler ruptures and loads up your cooling system with oil. Crazy high oil temps...60+ deltas...sheesh.

 

[todrac]

Well guys I’m going to step up and keep the truck and see if I have enough cash to make it perform correctly. I’ve contacted a local diesel repair shop, not the local Ford House, and discussed it with them and I am proud to say I’m in the game, Oil cooler, and delete kit have been ordered and shop input date of around the 20th of Jul for repairs. They are estimating parts to be around $675 and approximately 12 shop hours. I need any special instructions to pass on to him as to the proper way to flush the system. I have several post from this forum, including the PDF file named “Ford Powerstroke 6.0L Turbo Diesel Cooling System Overview and Flush”. I think this may be enough info to give him but if not please chime in and give any other items or procedural steps that are not mentioned in these articles.

Also, I have found that the FICM is not functioning properly because of low voltage when attempting to start and run engine. I have purchased an AE scan system, this system shows that with KOEO a voltage of 47.5, while cranking, engine running when cold a voltage of 40. Using the manual testing procedure as outlined on this forum I found a voltage of 52 KOEO and 35 volts KOER when cold. I removed the FICM and Re-Flowed the 16 power supply post. The voltages have not changed. Would re-flowing the 4 resistors raise the voltage? After reviewing the repair by Dr Quad I am not sure if the resistor re-soldering fix should be done from the top of the circuit board or bottom. I need clarification here. The reason I’m concerned is because of the close proximity of other components on the topside of the circuit board. It looks like it would be real tight to get a soldering iron in there, that is the top of the board.

After several starting sequences I found that the strategy is set for high current flow until either the EOT or ECT reaches a certain value. After that reading is reached something shuts off and voltage in the FICM returns to acceptable levels. Question, is this normal or should the FICM maintain 47 volts even when this strategy is engaged.

After Repair before Drive and Engine Start

Enhanced Powertrain CAN
P0603 Internal Control Module Keep Alive Memory (KAM) Error
P0672 Cylinder 2 Glow Plug Circuit
P0678 Cylinder 8 Glow Plug Circuit
P1000 OBD Systems Readiness Test Not Complete

After Repair and Drive

Enhanced Powertrain CAN
P0603 Internal Control Module Keep Alive Memory (KAM) Error
P0611 Fuel Injector Control Module Performance
P0672 Cylinder 2 Glow Plug Circuit
P0678 Cylinder 8 Glow Plug Circuit
P1000 OBD Systems Readiness Test Not Complete

Attached Execl file for review

 

[dieselmac]

There's not a scenario based strategy in the FICM. I would imagine one of two things is going on: 1) The glow plugs are still on, keeping voltage down on an already distressed FICM or 2) The injectors are having to work harder against the oil while it's under operating temps (it's thicker at lower temps).

Either case, you should have ~48volts at all times. Ford says 46 and up is still good. A healthy FICM (and batteries / alternator) can compensate for voltage dips from the charging system or increased loads due to "cold" oil.

FWIW, don't delay on the FICM repair / replacement. It can kill your injectors.

 

[todrac]

There's not a scenario based strategy in the FICM. I would imagine one of two things is going on: 1) The glow plugs are still on, keeping voltage down on an already distressed FICM or 2) The injectors are having to work harder against the oil while it's under operating temps (it's thicker at lower temps).

Either case, you should have ~48volts at all times. Ford says 46 and up is still good. A healthy FICM (and batteries / alternator) can compensate for voltage dips from the charging system or increased loads due to "cold" oil.

FWIW, don't delay on the FICM repair / replacement. It can kill your injector

Good points dieselmac, However I do not understand the glowplug circuit being engaged until the EOT or ECT reach normal operating temps. I was under the impression that the glowplugs have a 120 second duty cycle. Or is this the duty cycle when you turn the key on but do not start it. It is odd that this voltage problem happens whether it is 0 or 100 degree’s IAT. Lastly, when I turn the KOEO my AE shows 47.5 volts and the glow plugs should be active at this time. Maybe it is a combination of the items you mentioned that would drop the voltage HUM

I could be wrong on this and if so maybe someone on the forum could get me the correct info. I suppose I could disconnect the glowplug circuit and see if this is the culprit.

I have read numerous post on the inductive heat flash and all reports are that it is the FICM killer. My Strategy is VXBC9N8 as reported by the AE scan tool. I’m not sure if this is the latest flash or not but according to ford it can be re-flashed. Lastly, is the flash that controls the FICM actually on a prom chip inside it or is the flash in the PCM which in turn sends inputs to the FICM?

As for the oil, I cannot comment since I do not know the history on the vehicle, I bought it used, and the seller told me that he just changed oil and filter before I purchased it. I believe he used Rotella 15w40 but can’t be sure with any certainty. I am getting ready to change fluids when it is in shop next week for the Oil and EGR maint. I am going to use Rotella T 15w40

 

[dieselmac]

The EOT, ECT, and glow plugs operate independently of the FICM. The FICM could care less what they are doing. However, an FICM on the fritz could be affected by the GP's while they are energized. During this period, the FICM is receiving less than normal battery voltage due to the huge current draw by the GP's. But, again, a healthy FICM can compensate for the voltage dip and still put out ~48volts.

The GP's can be energized for up to 120secs. If the EOT is less than 132*F the glow plugs will be called for. If not, the PCM only does a bulb check on the wait-to-start light. If they are commanded on, the time varies depending on EOT and BARO. On edit: The glow plugs can still be energized after the truck is running. The wait-to-start light doesn't cycle with the glow plugs. Watch your battery voltage sometime. When you first start up, it'll run 11.5-12 volts and then all of a sudden jump up to a normal B+ of ~13.5+ volts. That jump is when the GP's shut off.

Bottom line: If your FICM is only putting out 35 or 40 volts at KOER, your FICM is bad.

 

[todrac]

How does one disable the GP circuit at start up to see if that is causing the drop in voltage?

As a side note, at night when I start the truck and i have the inteior lights on they will flicker or better yet pulse bright then dim. Its almost unoticable until it is dim light outside. I have not kept track to see if the lights stop blinking when the FICM goes back to normal voltage. Hmmm It just never ends does it.......

 

[todrac]

Looking over the procedure for flushing the coolant system prior to removing clogged coolers I'm wondering if anyone has tried using a coolant flush kit that splices into the inteior heater hose. If so, maybe someone could chime in an let me know how it worked. It seems this would make the job so much easier.

 

[dieselmac]

How does one disable the GP circuit at start up to see if that is causing the drop in voltage?

As a side note, at night when I start the truck and i have the inteior lights on they will flicker or better yet pulse bright then dim. Its almost unoticable until it is dim light outside. I have not kept track to see if the lights stop blinking when the FICM goes back to normal voltage. Hmmm It just never ends does it.......

You're thinking about this backwards. The GP's don't cause a low voltage in the FICM. A bad FICM causes low voltage in the FICM. Replace the FICM and your problems will be solved.

You may want to get your alternator and batteries load tested. That's a good first step when troubleshooting electrical gremlins (the flickering light, not the FICM). An alternator with a diode going/gone out can allow stray AC voltage onto the DC circuits.

 

[jbthomp]

i think you should put some thought in pulling the heads and putting in new head gaskets. your eot was crazy hot and i would bet that your head gaskets are going to fail soon. usually when i see one that hot we go ahead and recommend jerking the heads and checking them for warpage and put in new gaskets.

 

[todrac]

I think you may be right about the head gaskets. Before I start the work on the coolers I am going to take it to Radiator shop and have it pressure tested to see if the head gaskets are leaking yet. If not, I will probably do the work and see how it run's. If it’s running poorly then I will sell it for what I can get out of it. There's no oil in the coolant that I can see, the coolant in the degauss container looks clear. I have not had a puke problem yet but like you said with those temps the heads gaskets may be impacted but just haven't let go yet. I have a budget with this truck and its approaching this limit at rocket speed. The vehicle has 175,000 miles on it and I am looking at FICM, Coolers, possible injector failure on #8 and now possibly a head job. I, in my right mind am having trouble justifying these expenses with a motor that for all practical purposes is a piece of junk. I am retired now and I bought it to replace an aging 95 7.3. Once fixed this unit will have to tow an 18 to 19,000 lb 5th wheel and perhaps this is not the motor to trust with that responsibility. I'm really torn with this one. I have bought so many vehicles in my life but I really got burnt on this one. It's really hard to go back to the seller and try and get them to admit that they did you a dis-service by not disclosing this info. I must say I'd rather hear the truth, at least that way I can make intelligent decisions about how to precede.

 

[LordVngr]

Wow,

Sorry to read about your problems. At 170K+ miles, If it was me, I wouldnt put a Dime in that truck. If you bought it at a dealer I would certainly say something, If private owner not much you can do.

Your looking at Several Thousand Dollars minimum to Try and get it right and with that many miles you will never recoupe the cost of the repairs.
Sell it or trade it and take the hit now. in the long run, you will save money.

There should be a Sticky up here in the Number 1 Slot that if nothing else Say's

" If your thinking of buying a 2003-2007 6.0 PSD Spend a 169.00 First and BUY a Scangauge II. Use it to Compare ECT and EOT on your test drive. if 10 degree's difference or less, Buy. If 14 Degrees difference or more RUN. "


That simple piece of advice would have saved this man and possibly Countless Others from a lot of heartache, frustration, and money.


LV

 

[todrac]

Thanks for your reply LordVngr, I am really torn about what to do. I am thinking about selling it, but if I don’t disclose the problems I know I’ll feel like a creep and if I do disclose I might as well pay someone to take it from me. I haven’t sold my 95 PSD but it needs some work but not as much as the 04. It has about the same miles and has been with me since new, so I know its history and I know it can do the duty because it has tow’ed my 5er all over the country. I’d like to find a 01 or 02 7.3 PSD somewhere since I think the 7.3 is sort of bullet proof if taken care of..

As for the scanner, I bought an AE system when I started having problems with the 04. It was a nice little old lady that that sold it to me, recently lost her husband and wanted off it. The price was right since she sold it for $11,900. Being it’s a Lariat with all the bells and whistles, I thought I might be able to put a couple large into it and still come out ok. Anyhow, I’ll be doing something soon since the local shop has ordered the cooler and delete kit. I’m going to try and re-flow the FICM and see if that will bring it back into spec’s. I’ll keep everyone posted as to the outcome

 

[ryqster]

Wow, wow, wow...The situation deepens in that if your KZ really weighs 18-19k you will be well over the GCWR for that truck. You had that KZ across the scales? My 04 39' Teton Grand Sundance 3 axle only weighs about 17,500 in travel trim. I mean i'm not a big advocate of towing too heavily overloaded but I am also one who preaches do so at your own peril more from the standpoint of stopping power than anything else. You probably did ok on the price of the truck so you have some wiggle room on the repairs. That truck better have 4:10 or 4:30 rears to tow really well. In any case to try to sell that truck with those problems...could be a pretty bad beating...tough decision. If it were mine, I would do some research on the value of the truck, do the minimum to get it road worthy and probably move'r along, trying to get as muich of my cost back as possible.