[TowDaddy]

Okay, Guys

I need to tap into your collective advice. Just traded our 34' Airstream for a 36' Carri-Lite Emerald 5ver. While I pulled the AS with no problems with my 01 F250, I know that I need to move to something else to pull the new unit.

The dry weight of the Carri-Lite is 15K with a GVWR of 18K. I believe that I need an F450 as a tow vehicle (I like 10-20% overage on tow capacity). My questions are:

1) Am I correct in needing a 450?

2) Do I really need a dually for this. I had a conversion van at one time and you couldn't get it into a garage, car wash and some drive throughs due to height. I hate this and really don't want another vehicle like this but at this time I am resigned to the fact that I will most likely want a dually.

3) Should I buy a 6.4 or wait for the Skorpion? I will not be moving the unit for a few years so I don't need to buy for a couple of years.

4) This brings me to what to do with my current truck, an 01 F250 with the 7.3 PSD. Great truck (and paid for) but since I won't need a tow truck for a couple of years should I trade it off for a small eco vehicle or keep it. I can buy a lot of diesel for the cost of a monthly note.

5) Fifth wheel hitches. Any recommendations. I like the Pull-rite super slide but am open to other input.

Thanks in advance for any comments.

Hope everyone had a good holiday season!

 

[SmokeyWren]

1) Am I correct in needing a 450?

Yes, but not just any ole F-450. You need one with at least 27k GCWR. Count on your trailer weighing 18k when wet and ready for the road. And a late-model F-450 pickup is going to weigh more than 9k when wet and ready for the road. So that's 27k minimum GCWR.

An ordinary F-450 chassis cab has a GCWR of only 26k. You can even get a new F-350 DRW with a GCWR of 26k, but that's not quite good enough for your needs. A 2008 F-450 pickup produced in CY 2007 and without the high capacity towing pkg has a GCWR of 27,000 pounds. If you prefer the stick shifter, then F-450 pickups have 27,000 GCWR, so you wouldn't have any fudge factor at all. The 2008-up F-450 pickups with automatic tranny produced after January 1, 2008, have 33,000 GCWR. That's the one you need.

(I like 10-20% overage on tow capacity).

27k + 10 percent is 29.7k, or rounded off it's 30k. 27k plus 20 percent is 32.4k, so call it 33k. So you'd need a minimum of 30,000 GCWR to have at least a ten percent fudge factor. And 33,000 GCWR would give you lots of breathing room.

So guess what? You need a 2008-up F-450 pickup. Not a chassis cab converted to a towing machine, but the Ford factory F-450 pickup with automatic transmission. Beginning with production in January 2008, the F-450 pickups with automagic tranny have 33k GCWR. Right down your alley. And the 2008 pickups produced in CY 2007 had 33k GCWR when equipped with the high capacity towing pkg and automagic tranny, but they also had a 4.88 rear axle ratio, which was some fairly short legs with stock-size tires.

For the chassis cabs, you have to add the high capacity towing pkg to get over 26k GCWR. With an automagic tranny and 4.88 rear end, that gives you 30k GCWR, or the minimum you say you'd like to have. With a stick shift, the max GCWR is 28k with the high capacity towing pkg and 4.88 rear end.

2) Do I really need a dually for this.

Yes. Or a dually converted to "Super Single" tires and wheels.

With the strongest SRW Ford makes, you'd be overloaded over both the GVWR and GCWR of the tow vehicle.

The biggest, baddest factory SRW has a GCWR of only 23,000 pounds. That's about 4,000 pounds too light in the britches for your load. The GVWR on a 2009 F-350 SRW 4x4 diesel longbed CrewCab is 11,500, and it's going to weigh more than 8,500 when wet and ready for the road with driver, one adult passenger, 5er hitch, and normal options, tools, etc. So that leaves less than 3,000 pounds for maximum hitch weight. But your trailer is going to have over 3,200 pounds of hitch weight when wet and loaded for the road.

If you really hate the dually rump, then consider spending more money to replace the front and rear wheels and tires with custom 22.5" wheels, "real truck" 22.5" tires, and a 4.88 rear axle ratio (too make up for the much-taller truck tires). That's probably several thousand bucks, but then you'd have an SRW instead of a DRW.

A 22.5" truck tire has as much weight capacity as two of the 19.5" dually tires on the F-450. So you'd retain the weight capacity of the dually while having one big tire instead of two smaller tires on each end of the rear axle.

(Because of ABS, the front and rear tires must be the same diameter. So that's why you'd have to replace the otherwise-adequate front tires too.)

For one take on super single tires, check out the Turtle Expedition's F-550. Although it's been around for several years, it was a featured truck at the 2008 SEMA Las Vegas show. Turtle Expedition

5) Fifth wheel hitches. Any recommendations. I like the Pull-rite super slide but am open to other input.

The SuperGlide is a wonderful hitch for a shorty pickup. But F-450s don't come in a shorty version, so paying extra for the SuperGlide is a big waste of money.

For your 18k trailer, I'd get an ordinary Reese Select Series 20k 5er hitch.
Reese Select Series 20K 5th Wheel Hitch 30033

Or if you like lots of fudge factor, then go for the 22k version.
Reese Select Series 22K 5th Wheel Hitch 30034

I have the 16k version, and it's as good as I'd ever want with a long-bed tow vehicle.

 

[Parts Jimmy]

99-2003 F450-550 with a aftermarket bed and a 7.3. Pulling that much weight I would prefer a 6 speed also.

 

[Dualie]

how many miles a year do you actually tow?

your definitely going to need a Long bed crew cab DRW but if your not full timing it the rough ride of the 450 and added price tag really isn't needed.

MY 00 F-350 now with 336,000 Miles on it has done just fine pulling 28K combined regularly. With the bigger brakes and Tow haul in the newer trucks you should be fine. Plus my 2x4 crew cab long bed DRW fits in every parking garage i ever needed to park in.


Personally speaking Its a gamble either way as far as the 6.4 Vs. the scorpion. I used to bleed ford blue to the core, But every 6.4 i have been around has had one problem or another and several close friends had buybacks from ford. Couple that with the lack luster reputation of the 6.0L has me looking the dodges over very very closely. I would love a new Chevy D-MAX but until general motors steps up and figures out how to make their duallys stop i just cant pull the trigger on one.

As for your current truck I would keep it as a daily driver or winter vehicle.

 

[SmokeyWren]

99-2003 F450-550 with a aftermarket bed and a 7.3. Pulling that much weight I would prefer a 6 speed also.

Max GCWR available was 26,000 pounds for F-450 model years '99-'02.

Beginning in the middle of the 2001 model year, a few very special F-550 4x2s with automatic tranny had the optional high capacity towing pkg which raised the GCWR to 30,000 pounds.

For '03 model year, the max GCWR for stick shifters was 26,000 pounds. Both F-450 and F-550 4x2s with automatics could have the optional high capacity towing pkg which increased the GCWR to 30,000 pounds, but those were very rare birds. Good luck in trying to find one.

So all F-450s and F-550s with 7.3L engine and ZF 6-speed manual tranny are going to be overloaded with an 18k trailer. And almost all those with 7.3L engine and automagic tranny are going to be overloaded with an 18k trailer. But there are a few needles in the haystack, so good luck in finding a 2001.5 -up F-550 4x2, or 2003 F-450 4x2 with automatic tranny and the high capacity towing pkg, which has 30,000 pounds GCWR.

 

[OMCUSNR]

Smokey,

Do you have any idea why manual trans trucks are rated lower in towing capicity than autos? I really love the control of a manual.

TIA

OMC

 

[Believer45]

I am not Smokey but my guess would be manual transmissions are much easier to abuse than automatics when towing/loaded heavy. More shock to the driveline if not used properly - the slippage of the torque converter on an automatic makes things smoother. Too much clutch slipping at start out is hard on the clutch.

Another case of the manufacturers protecting us from our idiot selves. If automatics were better when hauling heavy then you would see automatics in semi trucks. What you see is computer shifted manual transmissions, not a true automatic. The computer system works the clutch, shift lever and such for you.

Dave / Believer45

 

[Parts Jimmy]

I stand by my choice for various reasons regardless of what the GCVW is listed. I would not tow that load on a regular basis with a 6.0 or 6.4 powered vehicle. I would rather get there for sure with a manual transmission and 7.3. The 450-550 will easily handle the 15-18k trailer. A used truck can be found at a reasonable price in today's market conditions.

The owner should consider getting a CDL also.

 

[davejobes]

As per changing tire size:

If you decide to go w/ different tires (Re: 22.5"), an easy calculation for the proper gear-ratio is (tire height x .12=gear-ratio). This can be used for any tire swaps, including large 4x4 tires too! Also lets you know if the proper ratio was engineered into OEM specs for stock tire sizes!

 

[Believer45]

I stand by my choice for various reasons regardless of what the GCVW is listed.

I agree 100% - I use the GVWR for the truck regardless of transmission in my personal calculations. I also far prefer manual transmission, being an old truck driver from way back. I was just answering the question asked with regard to factory ratings.

Dave / Believer45

 

[SmokeyWren]

Do you have any idea why manual trans trucks are rated lower in towing capicity than autos?

Please don't confuse me with any sort of an engineer, but I can give you an educated guess in laymen's terms.

It's because the torque converter in a modern automagic tranny multiplies the torque available to get a heavy load moving in adverse conditions, such as when parked facing uphill on a steep grade.

When it was stock, my '99.5 7.3L automatic had 500 lb/ft torque. But the torque converter increases that to almost 1000 lbs/ft when you first began moving up a steep grade dragging a heavy trailer. The stick shifters have a max of 500 lb/ft torque, regardless of how much you slip the clutch. So the automatic can begin moving a heavier load than a stick shifter with the same engine.

And the torque converter is designed to slip, so you don't hurt anything when you are slipping the unlocked torque converter to multiply the torque to get a heavy trailer moving. But you can do some damage if you allow a clutch to slip more than a little bit.

Other than getting a heavy trailer moving, the automagic is also better for towing on the edge of lugging the engine. The engine cannot lug with a 4R100 or 5R110 automatic, because the computer-controlled tranny will downshift before the engine begins to lug. But for a stick shifter, the driver is the computer. So the driver has to understand what lugging is and not allow it. That's asking a lot of some drivers.

 

[OMCUSNR]

That makes a little more sense, now. Also why heavier trucks have more gears - necessary to get the thing moving.

Thanks guys.

OMC

 

[TowDaddy]

Thanks to everyone

Thanks for all the advice. This just confirms what I had thought that I need an F-450 (or for those who would disagree, I would feel more comfortable with an F-450) and I will stay with the stock dually. Frankly, the idea of dealing with a heavily customized tire swap just to get to an SRW as SmokeyWren detailed is more than I want want to tackle. Just because it can be done, doesn't mean you should do it.

Now the issue is when to buy. Our new 5ver will go to an RV Resort that we have been using for over 5 years and we will most likely leave it parked there for the next 2-3 years at least. That is why I am asking should I buy a 6.4 or wait until the Scorpion is available. Given the current state of affairs for the auto industry, I may be able to buy a Ford truck with a Cummins and Allison Tranny in the near future .....LOL

As always, I can trust to get different opinions but always get good advice from the members of the forum. I also appreciate that the members of the forum are always willing to share their knowledge and aren't disrespectful of those of us with less experience.

Hope everyone had a safe holiday season and that the giftbringer of your belief left you everything you wanted.

Best Regards to all,

 

[NickKent]

I wouldn't buy the truck until you need it. You never know what is going to happen in the next 2-3 years.

 

[nitrogen]

indeed why make payments on a new truck you don't even need for 2-3 years. wait and see which manufacturers are still around and what the engines are like then. in the mean time if you decide to move it or do a short trip, rent a 4or 550 for the few days you might need it. rentals aren't cheap but for 36 payments you can do alot of renting, which also gives you the chance to try different brands etc and decide what you like

 

[Camshaft]

It is my understanding that long long ago auto trannies were not up tot he task of pulling heavy loads. With computers and modern engineering and technology available, many of the larger trucks are using auto trannies.

Sticks did / do have the advantage of very low gears to get loads moving, but so do the newer autos in big rigs.

I would not expect you to have any problem with a modern auto rated for the load you want to pull.

 

[NEVERSWEAT7]

Something about those fifthwheels with the word lite in them. It must be an oxymoron huh? I also am of the school your first choice will be the F-450 with at least the 430 gears. I own an 36' 2005 Alpen"lite" Portofino which isn't either. I will purchase my last and fin al truck here this year. An F-450 with a 4:30 rear end minimum.

 

[OT-550]

Smokey points out that a 550 made before 2008 isn't legal for the GCVW, and technically he's right. But practically, the 550 will pull and STOP 2 of those trailers. It could get sticky with the Po-Po if you get stopped is all. They take GCVW very seriously.
My friendly DOT police officer told me that here in NH DOT figures GCVW by reading what the TIRES (all axles) are rated for and crunching the numbers. Sticker ratings aren't used.

 

[losman]

TowDaddy, Unless the truck you're using now is ready to fall apart or it needs major repair work that is going to going to cost you an arm and a leg. I would wait until GM and Ford come out with their 2010 compliant trucks. Right Dodge Ram 450 is the only truck out there meeting those requirements. The only problem their is weather or not they're going to be around. I would let them float down the river if it were up to me...but that's a whole different discussion for another forum.

I personally have a cari-lite as well weighing the same, and I was towing it with my Silverado 2500 HD with air bags, Banks Power six gun tuner and exhaust brake I had put in. It had 140K miles on it and the rear axle rating was 500 pounds over the limit of what I should have been carrying.

I considered getting a 3500 Ford and or GM, but the towing rating (5th wheel) was right around the weight of the trailer and I didn't want to be right at the limit..so I started looking at class 4 trucks. I didn't like what I was reading online regarding the reliability of the F450...so I decided to get a Topkick 4500 customized by MTE (Monroe Truck Equipment) with 30,000 GVWR 330 HP and 620-640 Torque

There is one thread in this Forum claiming (and I have to believe him) the best MPG from a F450 which is very promising becuase I do lie the look of the truck and the 2009 models are spec'd out higher than what I have today. So, that's very promising, but that's all going to change next year as Ford comes out with version 1 of their new engine and as recommended here...you don;t want to be the first to own a new engine design ...unless of coarse Ford is paying to do so.

There are a lot of customized MTE trucks on the ground for sale today...Truckpaper.com has them....that's where I found mine and .... it's a buyers market. I decided to go with what worked for me and proved to be reliable for me in the past.

Best of luck

 

[biofumes]

Tow Rig

I'm just curious, but why hasn't anyone just mentioned to purchase an older freightliner, say an 86 with a single rear axle converted to a 5th wheel hitch? I think they only run about $8K. They're rated at 33K minimum tow rating, about same fuel mileage, those tires will last years too :read: