[71buickfreak]

I bought a 2001 E450 shuttle bus today. I am converting this to an RV and travel vehicle for my family. I also want to be able to tow my muscle car to a few shows around the country. I know the E450 can tow a good amount, around 10k. My car weighs 3800 pounds. I don't have the trailer yet, but I suspect it will come in the 1500-2000 pound range according to what I have seen. This would slightly eclipse the motohome-width class III hitches I have found. What should I do? DO you guys have any concerns about hauling with this rig? I have the 7.3 powerstroke and I believe the torqueshift trans, I counted 4 shifts. Also, under 30 MPH, the overdrive button automatically goes to OFF. I have to hit the button once I am going over 30 to turn it on.
Thanks!

 

[71buickfreak]

Oh, and will the torqushift trans handle towing in OD or does it have to be shut off?

 

[SmokeyWren]

What should I do? DO you guys have any concerns about hauling with this rig?

No problem about hauling/towing with that rig - provided you don't exceed either the GVWR or GCWR of the rig.

Your GCWR is 20,000 pounds. Your GVWR is on the Federal Certification Label, probably on the driver's doorframe somewhere. That's the label that includes VIN, tire size and inflation PSI, paint and trim codes and other codes, gross axle weight ratings (GAWR), gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR), etc. It also includes the month/year the cutaway chassis was assembled.

So after you finish building your homemade motorhome, load it up with the normal stuff you'll have on the road, including clothes, bedding, food, cooler full of cool, pots and pans and dishes, full propane tanks, normal amount of fresh water you'll have when on the road, passenger(s), pet(s), etc. Then go to a truckstop that has a CAT scale, fill up with diesel, and weigh the rig.

Subtract the weight of the wet and loaded rig from the 20,000 pounds GCWR and the answer will be the max weight of any trailer you can tow without overloading your rig over the GCWR.

Subtract the weight of the wet and loaded rig from the GVWR and the answer will be the max hitch weight you can have without exceeding the GVWR of your rig. Properly-loaded tag trailers have 10 to 12 percent hitch weight, so if your loaded trailer grosses 8,000 pounds, figure on 800 to 950 pounds hitch weight.

The only motorhome receivers I see are rated a max of 5,000 pounds weight carrying and 6,000 pounds with a weight-distributing hitch. But you don't want to be caught dead without a weight-distributing hitch, so plan on a max weight of car and trailer of 6,000 pounds.
Motor Home/RV Receiver Hitch

I have the 7.3 powerstroke and I believe the torqueshift trans, I counted 4 shifts. !

You have a 4R100 tranny with 4 gears plus a lockup torque converter. One of those "shifts" you counted was the torque converter locking up.

Oh, and will the torqushift trans handle towing in OD or does it have to be shut off?

Your 4R100 tranny is designed to tow in overdrive. If it can't make the grade without downshifting, it will downshift. As a general rule, the only time you want to lock out overdrive is when coming down the mountain with a heavy load pushing on you, or in up-and-down hills where the tranny shifts often. It doesn't hurt the tranny to shift up and down, but it causes extra heat that could overheat the tranny.

I would not tow more than a rowboat without a tranny temp gauge. Any tranny temp less than 200° is normal. 200° to 210° is okay. 210° to 225° means you are working the tranny very hard and probably at a slower speed so the torque converter is unlocked and not much air is passing through the tranny coolers. 225° is the red line. Don't go there.

 

[71buickfreak]

Thank you, lots of good info there. Yeah, i wasn't thinking of the lock up.

 

[71buickfreak]

I checked the sticker. Much to my dismay, the GVWR is only 14050. Even more frustrating is the actual weight. I took it to my buddy's work. The damn thing is empty (as in no chairs, but me and a tank full of dinosaur bones) and it STILL weighs 10k. 9970 pounds. I don't get it. As delivered the cutaway weighs 4300, your telling me that the fiberglass shell weighs 5700 pounds? There is no way!

 

[71buickfreak]

I just looked up a 25' fiberglass Glastron bowrider boat, probably has more fiberglass in it that this bus. Including a 350 cubic inch engine, the boat only weighs 4600. ANy chance the scale is off?

 

[71buickfreak]

So I thought GCWR was the same as GVWR. I thought it was a typo since the C and the V are right next to each other. Sheesh. I see that the E350 are rated at 20k, so the E450 should at least that. That means I have 10k to work with before I get into trouble.

 

[71buickfreak]

What is the quickest way to figure out the rear gear ratio?

 

[SmokeyWren]

So I thought GCWR was the same as GVWR. I thought it was a typo since the C and the V are right next to each other. Sheesh. I see that the E350 are rated at 20k, so the E450 should at least that. That means I have 10k to work with before I get into trouble.

GVWR is gross vehicle weight rating, i.e., the weight on the 4 tires of the van.

GCWR is gross combined weight rating, i.e., the weight of both the van and any trailer you have tied on.

Yes, your E-450 has a GCWR of 20,000 pounds (provided it has the 7.3L diesel engine and 4.10 axle ratio). But that's probably not your limiter. Your limiter is probably the GVWR. It will be very difficult to convert your van into a flull-blown motorhome and keep the gross vehicle weight down to around 13,000 pounds when wet and loaded for the road. You need that extra 1,000 pounds cushion for hitch weight. Hitch weight will be around 700 pounds if you tie onto a properly-loaded 6,000-pound tag trailer. That will leave you only 350 pounds cushion before you're overloaded over the GVWR of your chassis.

What is the quickest way to figure out the rear gear ratio?

The 2001 E-450s have a Dana Dana 80 rear axle. There should be a tag on the axle that includes the axle ratio along with come codes.The only ratios available in a diesel=powered van were 3.55 and 4.10, but I suspect your cutaway chassis has a 4.10 ratio. Notice the "4. 10" in this illustration:

But that's assuming your rig has the diesel engine. If it has the V-10 engine, then it could have 4.56 rear axle ratio and get really awful MPG.

As delivered the cutaway weighs 4300...

No. Where'd you get that? Per the Ford specs, the GVWR is 14,050 and the max payload rating is 8,085, leaving 6005 for the chassis with a diesel engine and no options. Gassers are a few hundred pounds lighter.

 

[71buickfreak]

The 4300 is what I found for the 2010 version per the Ford website, I guess they are lighter. I got the official specs from Ford last night on the '01- 5500 pounds cutaway chassis. I still have a hard time beliving what they added weighs that much, but I guess it does. I am not converting to a full RV, it will eventually have a toilet, but not a full blown toilet, just a simple chemical recylcer-style for emergnecies. No running water, just a sink with a simple drain and a couple of gallons of fresh, mostly for brushing teeth. It might not even get the sink. I am going to build a couch down half of one side and two booth on the other to seat about 14-18 people. The back section (behind the the rear wheel wells) will be partioned into a storage area (accessible via the wheelchair doors), the water closet (mostly just an actual closet for now), the vanity and a counter. I am going to build the walls from 1\2" plywood, covered with carpet for sound deadening, the couches, tables and booths. I am going to use couch cushions (I have a bunch of couches that are not being used right now) for all the seating. I am hoping to keep the added weight under 600 pounds. That leaves me a lot of room. We just want a rig that we can tow with, go camping (I cook outside and can use campground facilities) and travel with my extended family and friends. This should be a great dragstrip camper too.

 

[carringb]

For a hitch receiver, you can use one for the E350 van. They almost all come with the necessary shim to fit to the cutaway chassis (the vans have a slight step in the frame for the bumper bracket...).

 

[Vitor Hugo Silva]

No problem about hauling/towing with that rig - provided you don't exceed either the GVWR or GCWR of the rig.

Your GCWR is 20,000 pounds. Your GVWR is on the Federal Certification Label, probably on the driver's doorframe somewhere. That's the label that includes VIN, tire size and inflation PSI, paint and trim codes and other codes, gross axle weight ratings (GAWR), gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR), etc. It also includes the month/year the cutaway chassis was assembled.

So after you finish building your homemade motorhome, load it up with the normal stuff you'll have on the road, including clothes, bedding, food, cooler full of cool, pots and pans and dishes, full propane tanks, normal amount of fresh water you'll have when on the road, passenger(s), pet(s), etc. Then go to a truckstop that has a CAT scale, fill up with diesel, and weigh the rig.

Subtract the weight of the wet and loaded rig from the 20,000 pounds GCWR and the answer will be the max weight of any trailer you can tow without overloading your rig over the GCWR.

Subtract the weight of the wet and loaded rig from the GVWR and the answer will be the max hitch weight you can have without exceeding the GVWR of your rig. Properly-loaded tag trailers have 10 to 12 percent hitch weight, so if your loaded trailer grosses 8,000 pounds, figure on 800 to 950 pounds hitch weight.

The only motorhome receivers I see are rated a max of 5,000 pounds weight carrying and 6,000 pounds with a weight-distributing hitch. But you don't want to be caught dead without a weight-distributing hitch, so plan on a max weight of car and trailer of 6,000 pounds.
Motor Home/RV Receiver Hitch



You have a 4R100 tranny with 4 gears plus a lockup torque converter. One of those "shifts" you counted was the torque converter locking up.



Your 4R100 tranny is designed to tow in overdrive. If it can't make the grade without downshifting, it will downshift. As a general rule, the only time you want to lock out overdrive is when coming down the mountain with a heavy load pushing on you, or in up-and-down hills where the tranny shifts often. It doesn't hurt the tranny to shift up and down, but it causes extra heat that could overheat the tranny.

I would not tow more than a rowboat without a tranny temp gauge. Any tranny temp less than 200° is normal. 200° to 210° is okay. 210° to 225° means you are working the tranny very hard and probably at a slower speed so the torque converter is unlocked and not much air is passing through the tranny coolers. 225° is the red line. Don't go there.

Thanks for all the good information ... I also have a 7.3L Ford E450 bus and I want to buy and install a hitch to tow a small sport car ... can you give me some suggestions on which hitch to buy?

 

[Scoobywagon]

I realize this thread is super-old and I'm awfully late to the party, but there's some info in here I'd like to clarify if someone could. Firstly, where is that 20k GCWR coming from? I've been looking for that number for MONTHS and all I have is the GVWR, so I've been trying to work it backwards based on weight and whatnot and I'm coming up with a much higher number. Secondly, the axle ratio information presented here is not entirely correct. It is possible that there are differences in options between 01 and 03. However, I have an 03 E450 with the 7.3L and 4.56 gears. I'm assuming because ambulance? It was originally ordered as an ambulance and built out that way. I see no indications of an axle swap, so without chasing the VIN at the dealer, I'm confident that it came from the factory in this configuration.

 

[DonWarkentin]

2003 Ford Econoline - Specs, Specification, Data, Features

Here is a chart that says that with 4.10 gears, the GCWR would be 20,000 lb. I don't know what it would be with 4.56 gears. I haven't been able to find a chart with that one in it.

 

[Scoobywagon]

ok. I've seen that chart before. However, the section that discusses GCWR is specifically for Vans as opposed to cutaway or stripped chassis. It therefore only goes up to the E350.

 

[DonWarkentin]

https://www.fordservicecontent.com/Ford_Content/catalog/owner_guides/0373l733e.pdf

Here you have it from the diesel supplement from the ford.com web site.

GCWR (Gross Combined Weight Rating)/Trailer Weights Rear axle ratio Maximum GCWR-kg (lbs.) Trailer Loaded Trailer Weight - kg (lbs.) Maximum Frontal Area Of Trailer-m2 (ft2 ) 4.10 9072 (20000) 4536 (10000) 5.52 (60) E-350 Cutaway and Chassis Cab (all wheelbases, all GVWRs) 4.10 9072 (20000) 4536 (10000) 5.52 (60) E-450 and E-550 (all wheelbases, all GVWRs) All 9072 (20000) 4536 (10000) 5.52 (60)

E-450, all wheelbases, all GVWR, 20,000 lb GCWR

 

[Scoobywagon]

AHA! That is EXACTLY what I was looking for. It did not make sense that a 450 and 550 (both significantly heavier than a 350) should have the same GCWR as a 350. But, according to that publication, 20k is correct for all three on a bumper pull. However, a 450 with a 5th wheel or Gooseneck jumps up to 26k combined. That makes a TON more sense now. Actually, it makes 3 tons more sense!

I think part of the problem here is that the E-450/550 SD's were ALL "incomplete vehicles" from the factory. Ford has no way of knowing in advance how a given vehicle will be upfitted. So why publish a 5th wheel spec for a van? I think that's why they include the segment about "Calculating the load your vehicle can tow/carry ". The catch here is you have to know actual axle weights in your current configuration. As long as you don't exceed your Axle ratings (thus keeping everything below your GVWR), and the tow vehicle represents 75% of the total weight of the trailer and cargo, you should be good to go. Time to go find an axle scale.

Thanks for that!

 

[DonWarkentin]

http://www.trucktrend.com/how-to/towing/1502-sae-j2807-tow-tests-the-standard

J2807A: Performance Requirements for Determining Tow-Vehicle Gross Combination Weight Rating and Trailer Weight Rating - SAE International


The links above describe what is required to establish a GCWR for a vehicle up to 14,000lb GVWR. Since your vehicle has GVWR of 14,050, these requirements do not apply. It appears that Ford set the GVWR just above the 14,000 lb limit so that the outfitter would not have to do the complicated and costly testing after completing the vehicle. There is a lot more to it than just not exceeding the axle weight ratings and having the weight of the tow vehicle be at least 3/4 of the weight of the trailer. I'm guessing that Ford did not establish a higher GCWR for E-450 when using fifth wheel because as sold by Ford, it was not equipped for fifth wheel towing, and it would depend upon how the outfitter finished the vehicle.

Here is the section from the owner's guide from Ford.com about calculating the load your vehicle can carry/tow. There doesn't seem to be anything here about axle weight limits or having the tow vehicle be at least 75% of the weight of the trailer.

Calculating the load your vehicle can carry/tow
1. Use the appropriate maximum GCWR chart (in the Trailer Towing section in this chapter) for your type of engine and rear axle ratio.
2. Weigh your vehicle without cargo. To obtain correct weights, take your vehicle to a shipping company or an inspection station for trucks.
3. Subtract your loaded weight from the maximum GCWR in the chart. This is the maximum trailer weight your vehicle can tow. It must be below the maximum trailer weight shown in the chart.

 

[Theguywithatruck]

Just going to weigh in (puns) on what your e450 can tow rather than what it’s rated for. I am not suggesting anyone do this, and definitely not someone without extensive experience driving and towing with a class 4 truck.

I have a 20k hitch ‘98 e superduty powerstroke. I’ve comfortably and safely towed 15,000lbs from Little Rock to Boston up and over the mountains. 18k triaxle trailer. So that’s 25,000 combined.

I saw better than 10mpg for much of the trip.

Whether it’s a converted bus or a factory built RV, your diesel e450 will hardly notice towing a passenger vehicle on a relatively lightweight car hauler.

You will, however, need to pony up for a custom install.