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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I would appreciate any information from people that have been running WVO blends, in there vehicles without modifications to the fuel system. I am looking for reports both good and bad. I would especially appreciate negative results from any with first hand knowledge of a problem.

I am just starting to run a WVO blend in my non-modified ’99 F-350 7.3

The best way to reach me is [email protected]

Thank you
 

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Have you tried the Bio Diesel section of this forum? More info than you can shake a stick at
Plus it is never a good idea to post your email on these forums, there be trolls lurkin about =(
Cheers
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thanks, I've posted it ther also. Still no responses
 

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My dad has been running wvo and a blend for over 18 months. He has a 1997 PSD F-250 with stock dual tanks. So far he has replaced the lift pump and a fuel pressure dampener required on CA emmissions trucks, neither of these issues can be attributed to running oil, however it brings up the point that seems to get lost in these boards which is just because you are running SVO or a blend you cannot blame everything that happens to your truck on the WVO. That being said he was replacing fuel filters VERY regularly at first, there is some sort of reaction between tank crud and WVO that cleans the diesel tank and all of that stuff ends up in your filter, however his filter intervals are back to normal at this point. The 7.3's design lends itself to WVO operation, and if you are luck enough to live in a climate that resembles hell -like we do in central California you can run at least a 50% blend 10 months out of the year in a stock 7.3 with dual tanks. WVO is just like anything other fuel or fuel additive, you need to get it from a reputable source or understand how to get it and process it personally.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Thank you for the information.

My 7.3 has only a single tank. I am cutting the WVO, after it has been de-watered, with kerosene and gasoline. I have done nothing to the truck, so that means I do not start and stop on petro-diesel.

I hear "Theory" that the cylinder walls may become damaged due to ring land burning and that the fuel may degrade the lubricating oil, causing all sorts of problems. The other concern is injectors coking. I have yet to get first hand reports of this. To the contrary, I am getting positive experiences reported to me.

To avoid the frequent filter changes that your Dad experienced in the begining, I ran some Star-Tron fuel additive/ cleaner in my truck before making the change to WVO blend. I haven't had to change a filter yet at over 1000 miles.
 

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He runs a RUG or KERO blend with PowerService diesel clean to prop the cetane back up and keep things clean, I have seen somthing in the lab reports from Blackstone about oil degrdation when using biodiesel, but I don't think I even saw anything related to WVO on that. Also have you been to the infopop WVO forums??
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I have posted the same question on the forum I think you are referring to.

No responses there yet.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Leroy,
If your Dad has any problems down the road with the WVO blend in his unmodified truck, please let me know. I would really like to hear how things are working out. Do you think you could send me an update about once a month or so?

Thank you,
Eric
[email protected]
 

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A while back I was cruising around on infopop, and ran across an interesting thread that was talking about the use of WVO in today's DI engines as opposed to the "previous generation" IDI, and why some worked with WVO and some didn't...

Boiled down to this thread's relevance (and stripping out all the flaming that went on between danalinscott and... well... everyone...), the thread "sorta concluded" that the PSD and the Cummins engines worked well with WVO because of the shape of the piston head... the PSD and the Cummins have a "concave bowl" on the head of the piston, while the Duramax is flat. This created a "pocket" for the atomizaion/splatter pattern (by design), and made it more difficult for the WVO to make its way to the piston walls where coking causes more of a problem.

This, in addition to the fact that the PSD in particular (it might also be true on the Cummins, I can't remember) has the fuel ports on the heads, and has the fuel in contact with the heads for a paticularly long time before being passed through the injectors. This makes the head, in fact, a gigantic heat-sink... reducing the possibilty of burning "cold" (or less viscous) WVO, which is (I think) the culprit for coking.

Now... I could be totally off base... and I am simply spitting out what I gleaned from another thread... nothing here is personal knowledge... but that sorta made sense to me. (Take everything you read on the internet with a grain of salt... including this post... I also have proof in my garage that Mighty Mouse was behind the Kennedy assassination).

I just finished my first 1000 miles of a 25% blend of WVO in my #2 diesel... the last 400 miles were spent hauling a 4 ton travel trailer around for a weekend vacation. No issues short of a shaky first attempt (which cleared itself up in a matter of 10 miles) due to trying to blend at too cold an ambient temp.

I don't have any data (and it's only been for a short time in comparison with many others).... and I have a spare fuel filter on every drive so far... but haven't needed it yet.

I am blending with partial-hydro soy oil... which is just on the tipsy edge of gelling at about 55*... so I am making sure that I only dump my WVO into the tank at temps above 65* or so, to make sure it all mixes up properly.

My gut tells me that it would be easy to "get greedy" with my blend percentages and push an enevelope that even my PSD would start to choke (coke?) at.... I plan on sticking at a 25% blend until my full WVO (FN74) conversion is complete.... then probably drop back to 100% petro for the start-up and shut-down. Others report that they have run a 50/50 blend with success, but I don't live in the 7th ring of hell...that seems a little too high for my climate.


Hope my long-winded post had some element of info you were looking for.

Halitosis
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Jay,
Thank you for your post regarding my question on Diesel Stop. The information you provided is exactly what I'm looking for.

I guess I missed the thread that you had referred to on info-pop. I get on the forums and always get sidetracked and then overwhelmed.

Without a doubt, Dana is a brilliant guy with a lot of knowledge and experience but when I asked him directly, even he was unable to give me a first hand account of someone having any trouble that could be attributed to a WVO blend being used in an unmodified vehicle.

The information you passed on all made perfect sense, and I was unaware of the shape of the piston head. My big question is what, if any, damage is being done when the engine first starts and is cold? Likewise, what about the fuel left behind when the engine is turned off?

I'm no engineer and not much of a mechanic, so I'm pretty ignorant in this field; although, I have learned a lot from reading the posts.

If you have any further insights, or could give me an update in the future, I would really appreciate the information.

You have this same text sitting in your e-mail, but I was now able to log in here, so thought I would post it.

Thank you,
Eric
 

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[ QUOTE ]

what damage is being done when the engine first starts and is cold? Likewise, what about the fuel left behind when the engine is turned off?



[/ QUOTE ]

WARNING: LONG-WINDED POST:

I am the dumb one in the family. I have two younger brothers that are chemical engineers, and I have talked at length with them about my blending and converting to WVO.

If you go to Frybrid, you will find an explanation of the "frying pan" test to demonstrate the issue of coking.

Don't try this at home. This is for mental illustration only. (I know you won't, I just feel better having said that).

In short, the test goes something like this:

Take two frying pans. In the first frying pan, put a drop or two of WVO in the middle. Heat the frying pan to 500*. As the pan heats up, you will notice that the oil gets hot and starts to smoke. Finally, all the oil burns away, leaving a crusty residue on the pan. That crusty stuff (supposedly) is the result of coking.

Now...take the second frying pan... heat it up DRY to 500*, then put a drop of WVO in the middle of it. It will explode, taking with it your eyebrows and stove... and leaving no residue.

That demonstration/analogy is supposed to show you why you can't burn "cold" WVO.

I ran that scenario past one of my brothers, and his reply was "sure, that's the case... but I wouldn't draw the same conclusions from the experiment". The reason? Do the same experiment with a drop of #2 diesel. If you slowly heat the #2 diesel, you are doing nothing more than BOILING away materials... leaving whatever impurities were in the fuel behind on the pan.

Heat up any material hot enough and fast enough, it will ignite/explode/burn. This little frying pan experiment is just showing you the difference between evaporation vs. ignition.

I then asked my brother another question... "with the exception of water (which seems to break every rule anyway), does a liquid tend to hold a constant viscosity right down the the freezing point?"

Surprisingly, his answer was NO. In fact, with the exception of some pretty oddball and rare stuff, liquids tend to follow the SAME viscosity curve, with only the freezing/boiling points being different.

He checked a viscosity reference graph in one of his official "smart guy" manuals, and said that it looked like a typical liquid will increase its viscosity as much as 8% from its "midpoint" (halfway between freezing/boiling) to the freezing point.

8%. WOW. That means that my diesel engine is running a fuel that is 8% "thicker" at 20.1* than on a sunny summer day.

Translation (in my mind): If I blend my fuel, I am doing nothing more than "simulating" the viscosity of colder #2 dino-diesel.

So... how do I figure out what blend % falls in that range?

Well... infopop says to do the "Dr. Pepper" test. In short, you take a pop can, and poke a pin-hole in the bottom. Pour in a measured quantity of a liquid, and measure how long it takes for it to drip out the bottom. (Jeff Foxworthy ain't got nothin' on me... "if you ever poured diesel fuel into a Dr. Pepper can, you might be a red-neck").

My first test was of raw #2 diesel. My measured quantity of #2 fuel dripped out in 2:50 (2 min 50 seconds).

My second test was a blend of 10/90 (WVO to #2). This took 2:53 to drip through. (About a 2% increase).

My third test was a blend of 20/80... which resulted in a time of 2:57 (about a 4% increase).

My fourth test was a blend of 25/75... which resulted in a time of 3:00 (or just over a 5% increase).

All of my tests were done at a temp of 70*F... and I stopped there.

If I would have been thinking, or had less beer to drink that day, I would have tossed a measured quantity of #2 diesel in the freezer to make sure that the viscosity increased at the lower temps...

BUT...I learned that a 25% blend resulted in a fuel mixture that was 5% "thicker"... well within my 8% threshold.

So... why is viscosity important? It's because of the atomization/splatter pattern of the fuel through the injectors. Today's diesel engines have a very tight tolerance for the spray patterns through the injectors.

You ever had to lube a squeaky bolt... and you grab a can of WD-40... but the straw thingy isn't in all the way? You press the nozzle, and the lube goes all over your hands, as well as your new jeans. Doesn't mean that the lube is BAD, it's just that it didn't wind up going where it was supposed to. Since WD-40 stains denim... you can consider your jeans "coked".

Same thing with the fuel. If the viscosity of the fuel changes too much, your splatter pattern will also change, resulting in fuel going where it's not supposed to....like on your cylinder walls, (or worse) left in your injectors. When that flashpoint hits, you have fuel igniting in places it wasn't supposed to.

How will your mileage vary in these experiments? Again, my temp was 70*... if you live in HELL, then the higher ambient temperatures will allow you to run a higher blend of WVO/#2 without altering the viscosity outside that 8% threshold.

So... how will starting your engine COLD in the morning damage your engine if you have a WVO blend? If the viscosity of your fuel hasn't changed, then my answer is "none". But let's just say that a freak ice storm came in the middle of August, and dropped your fuel temp to the point where it DID affect it. Then, the answer might be "some".

Now... I am sure that there are folks here on this forum that are smarter than me that will say that all my data is flawed because I didn't do some experiment when the moon was in phase, and the ocean was in high-tide. Certainly all of my knowledge here is the result of standing on the shoulders of giants. I'm just piecing together what I have found. I always defer to folks that have more experience than I do.... and bow down willingly.

But... that's my .02, and it's what I have come the the conclusion of to explain what's going on 'under the hood'.

Hope that helps.

Halitosis
 

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Do a search on filtering and you will get a whole host of info.

In a nutshell, I get my grease from a restaurant that is kind enough to pour it into a series of 6-gallon metal buckets for me. From there:

1) use a barrel heater to heat it up to 130*+ in the buckets

2) pour it from the buckets through a 200 micron barrel-top plastic strainer (to strain the larger crud out of it) mounted on top of a 55 gallon steel drum.

3) Heat the contents of the steel drum to about 150*+ for 4-6 hours or so to get the water evaporated out of it. (Note: This step might not work for all WVO users... I just happen to know that my oil contains little or NO water... I work pretty closely with my restaurant, and their "dumping" procedures....).

4) pump the HOT oil from the drum through a 10-micron fuel filter into a series of 12-gallon "portable" plastic barrels.

I will most likely go down to a 5 micron filtering on the final here very shortly.... i am not sure I need to, but it would make me more comfortable to be BELOW the 9-10 micron stock fuel filter rating for the PSD.

So far, I have filtered about 300 gallons of oil, and I only JUST changed to my 2nd 10 micron fuel filter. They run me $6 each....so I would guess that I am getting about 250+ gallons per filter.

When my plastic 200 micron strainer gets too plugged up with crud, I just take a playing card and lightly "scrape" the crud into the trash. (It's easy to find a stack of playing cards around your house that's missing one card... that gives you 51 more uses).

Rule of thumb: Filter your grease HOT. Like 130*+ hot. Not 100* hot. My original experiments were with an aquarium heater that got my grease nice and fluid at 85*, but with dismal filtering speeds.

I can post a pic of my setup if you want, but I know there are others that have a much better assembly than me.

Halitosis
 

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Wow
Just read more than I think I can retain, have to re read over and over again. This all makes a lot of sense...
One question though, in order to prevent the viscosity problem with WVO couldnt we cut it using a diesel fuel additive such as the PowerService DieselKleene or Stanadyne stuff. Help to raise the cetane levels. Maybe this is already done and I am just missing something
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Halitosis, Good input! BTW be forwarned NOT to heat up a teflon coated pan for any of these test. I assume everyone uses castiron or what?
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
RagingMain,
That is exactly what I am doing. I heat, settle, and filter my WVO. I then add kerosene, gasoline and cetane booster to make the blend. This blend gets put into my trucks single 38 gallon fuel tank which may have anywhere from 1/4 to 3/4 of a tank of petro-diesel.

It is the addition of the thinning agents that make the blend and hence, in my feeble opinion, cause many of the arguments about the use of non-heated WVO being used in unmodified vehicles to be tossed out the window.

Halitosis, thank you for your posts. They have made perfect sense and have been very enlightening.
 

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[ QUOTE ]
RagingMain,
That is exactly what I am doing. I heat, settle, and filter my WVO. I then add kerosene, gasoline and cetane booster to make the blend. This blend gets put into my trucks single 38 gallon fuel tank which may have anywhere from 1/4 to 3/4 of a tank of petro-diesel.

It is the addition of the thinning agents that make the blend and hence, in my feeble opinion, cause many of the arguments about the use of non-heated WVO being used in unmodified vehicles to be tossed out the window.

Halitosis, thank you for your posts. They have made perfect sense and have been very enlightening.

[/ QUOTE ]

Am I understanding right that you mix in gasoline and kerosene to cut the WVO, or that you are just adding a commercial booster for each particular fuel... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shrug.gif
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
I got started with the Diesel Secret Energy process. I know...Stupid. Anyway, it got me started down this road. I use their basic formula, but I have added steps to the process. Regarding the mix, I take the heated and settled WVO, I pump it into a second tank. While this happens it passes through two whole house cartridge filters. One is 10-15 micron, the second is 1-2 micron, and then it goes through a Goldenrod water block.
Once I have my measured amount, usually 25 gallons, in the second drum I add 10% kerosene and 5% gasoline. That means for 25 gallons of WVO, I add 2.5 gallons of kerosene and 1.25 gallons of gasoline. To the mix I also add 20 ounces of Diesel Kleen. I mix this in the drum with a stick, i then turn on my pump and re-circulate this blend with it passing through the filter set up mentioned earlier. At this point, it's ready to go into my truck.

I hope that clarifies it for you.
 
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